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We can?t have it both ways. We can?t have Jesus and works-salvation. Pick one, but don?t mix old with new. When we put new wine in an old wine-skin, the new wine bursts the bottle, and we lose both. Either stay with the old bitter wine of works, or drink the new wine of the Cross. When we mix hot with cold we get something lukewarm. We may think we?re right. We may think that there?s no way we?re wrong about God. Yet nevertheless if we are mixing Grace with works in our lives or our beliefs, we are very wrong. But it?s not to late for us. We can still change what we believe. It might cost us years of work. Our lives may have been wasted up until now. We may have to disown everything we?ve ever done for God. But be thankful that we still have time to find the pearl of great price. So stop , turn around, and face the Savior. Say to Him ? from now on I?ll depend on Your work, and I shall no longer put any confidence in my works.? Salvation is NOT unconditional. What is the one condition that we must meet to be saved? What is the equation of salvation? Faith + Cross = Salvation! We must trust in what Jesus has done to be saved. We must not forget the Gospel, or else we have believed in vain. Are you believing this? Are you preaching this to your hearers? If you believe that salvation happens any other way, you are believing another gospel. I am thinking of preachers, Christian singers, evangelists, and all the others that are adding legalism to the Gospel. You are the reason this country is in the shape it?s in. If you would have only remained true to the Good News, there would have been no falling away. But many of you wanted to convict people by usurping the Holy Spirit?s work! Do you feel that I am coming against you? Well, that?s not a good sign for you. A believer in the Gospel would rejoice at what I am saying. I pray that Jesus will stop you from marginalizing what He has done on the cross. You marginalize His work when you tell people that self-merit plays any part in salvation. Preach the Gospel and let God create a new nature inside the simple believer. There is no other way. I hope you get what I am saying. If you do, you will feel free, and you will go and tell the Good News in the spirit of freedom!!

"We may think we?re right. We may think that there?s no way we?re wrong about God. Yet nevertheless if we are mixing Grace with works in our lives or our beliefs, we are very wrong." By golly, I smell a contradiction! Just say these words: "I don't know." It will set you free!

Lets face it JC Most people (including myself) hate bieng preached at.(Did you use the initials because of the other JC?) We are constantly learning and evolving. For someone to claim they have found the true " path/ way/ religion " and then try ad nausium to convert evryone to his or her way of thinking and beliefs, to me is not a very humble way of bieng. Respect other people whether you think they are right or wrong. I give advice if Im asked for it and Im never too dissappointed if it isnt taken, at least I tried and gave my best advice. I treat others as I would like to be treated myself, and humour is essential, people can be too serious. Lighten up, shake the bee out of your bonnet, and start living a little bit. People get tired of hearing the same old same old, from new evangelists.

Specially when they tell you that " your life may have been wasted." I dont think insulting people and the personal choices they have made for whatever reason is a wise thing to do. But that's just my opinion.

The World is in this shape because the Creator allowed it to be such. There is no right and wrong in that. Life is never wasted. Life may be removed too soon from someone who might have done more for the world, or removed from a soul before it gained its place in the world, but it is never wasted. If anything, life is transformed in one way or another. I'm not preaching and I don't judge anyone on their beliefs, I weigh them by their actions and decide for myself if they are worthy of my respect. I could sit here and preach the Christian belief to people all day and accomplish little if anything at all, but I can serve God by walking my life path in such a way that Light shines on those around me, believer and unbeliever alike. If you believe, "let your Light shine". If you don't believe, the choice is yours and I respect the unbeliever. The life in the universe that exists now is exactly the same amount that has always existed, forever. The entropy that exists is also exactly the same in the universe as it has always been. It is called Balance. Understand balance and you will understand life. By the way, my name here is just a nickname. I've had it for a long time, and I'm as big a PG fan as you can be, he's one of my heroes.

All you universalists says the same things. You ignore your sin problem. You think you can be accepted by God in and of yourselves. You deny the love of God in the cross and consider it unholy. But you are still in Adam's sin ,so you will suffer loss. You are not in the second Adam, Jesus, and so you will be expelled from the new Jerusalem. You have heard and have rejected, so it will go hard for you. By faith in Jesus, God will see Jesus in you. No faith, no imputed goodness!!!! Jesus alone is the Lamb who has transfered all sin into His body on the tree. Believe in Him so your sins can be punished vicariously. If you do not believe that Jesus is the Great I Am who died and rose, you will DIE IN YOUR SIN!!!

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. But to those who are being saved, it is the power and wisdom of God.

Those who believe in a sin problem or Adam's sin (and Adam is nothing but a metaphor, lol, so is the many times changed idea of a paradise, to make it fit to create some willing and unknowing sheep) or the like are fallen into a trap, made to make people feel guilty, where they are not at all originally. Its not at all the same system all over the world, in fact, such a guilt building system is completely unknown in most religions in the world. It does not take much, to come (back) into basic (and born into) unity and balance of oneself and with the rest. Those, who ignore this and take this away from people are far more sinners and also far more often those, who create wars. Sorry to say. Peace! People are not slaves nor sheep. Let them live what they really are!

"All you universalists says the same things." Ouch. That one borders on ugly, Joey. I guess one of the things that my faith allows for that yours doesn't is the acceptance of others' beliefs.

How about a "godless" applepie for all? I know, it can be a sin, if one eats too much of it. . . But how can one know without at least trying, he? :-]

Joey Chive. What did I write that gave you the impression I'm a Universalist? I was driving home the point that this is a Peter Gabriel fan forum, not a preaching forum. Whether or not I believe in punishment for sin is irrelevant to the thread. I addressed whether or not life can we "wasted". I don't believe it can. We all make choices, and I do believe in right and wrong, good and evil. Again, those beliefs are meaningless in the discussion of life being "wasted" in some way. Sit down with an educated theologian and find balance. If you base your beliefs strictly on hellfire and damnation for sin rather finding the good in life and walking in Christ's footsteps, you missed the point of the Gospel. Acceptance of Christ and baptism = forgiveness of sin and rebirth. Learn to accept your imperfection and accept your forgiveness that you were promised by Jesus and you will be reborn. Walk in fear and anger and you miss the blessing of Christ's sacrifice. I didn't want to start a religious discussion, and this response was directed to Joey. All respect to those who disagree. To Life. Cheers!!!