petergabriel.com

err don't get me wrong T', but we did all we could on the other forum, and you were not very happy with it. I don't criticize your P.O.V at all, you must know that, but I guess we needed a bit of rest from this nameless thing. I don't know what you would like us to do, my friend, turn the other cheek? I can't and surely , I'm not the only one. For the moment, we breathe. We don't hide, we take some cool time. Really, to me, it was a pain in the ass. Not only her but the fact I come here to relax and that was not possible anymore. Real life is sometimes difficult , why should it be in virtual places too? This is my opinion, only.

I totally agree with Ste, we just wanted a bit of peace,to look each thread without fearing to find a war going on there. I'm not against anybody, and I never had problems with anyone, here, but I was tired of so many quarrels.

OK, cool, but I personally don't feel comfortable excluding people, imagine if it were YOU. War takes two armies, two opposing factions. As far as I can see, it seems like she's just defending herself. In her own indecipherable way. Yes she's sort of fixated on who started what, and the only way she can see to justify it, is to tell people to look it up. I haven't really seen any 'attacks' from her side at all. Maybe it's just me.

Sorry to ramble, T'. We don't exclude nobody. In fact we moved to be left alone, because of the name caling "thieves", "liars" etc. As you say I try to imagine if it was me. The only problem is. I don't do this kind of thing. I don't rave about rules and old aquaintances with people, and I don't try to tell everyone I know him and her and do this and that. She's not only fixated on who started that, she keeps on talking about it on every thread and that's unsuffereable. Now imagine if you were in Ray's place? Not trying to be mean at you , man, really but if you haven't seen no "attacks" maybe I should go learn english more.

T, I think maybe there are 2 sides to this story. Whilst you are completely correct that excluding people is just plain wrong(I myself made this very point), I think maybe no one is being excluded by some people posting down here. Its not like its exclusive to anyone, everyone is free to come here and read/post. And many people do still post back up on the general thread, just not as regular as they used to. So I suspect that your both right, and there is a very careful line to tread here. I for one will not take sides, as i value everyones company on this site. But sometimes it is nice to open a thread and not see it disintergrate into point scoring and name calling, or just endless repetition of the same themes. People came here seeking a little shelter i believe. that doesnt mean the general thread is for one faction and this for another. That only happens if we let it be that way. Sorry didnt mean to rant, just dont want a seperate range war breaking out on this forum. We are all Lunatics, all here because of the same guy, and the same music.

T. Sorry if I am not as swift as my other fellow lunies. Not only I don´t share you POV. I do not accept your "bunch of quitters" comment. I am sure this has been a mere fantastic coincidence but, since we decided to seek for an oasis, the steam seems to have disappeared. Turning your back to a problem does not necessarily mean you´re a quitter. Maybe you are practicing more prudence than you could understand. You say you haven´t seen offences from this woman. . . in literal terms. You don´t have to call people "dogs" if you can say everyone is barking. You don´t have to say people are blind, but insist no one sees the truth. You don´t have to say everyone´s stupid. . . You don´t have to use the actual words to offend and provoke people. "How could you let one person kick you out of the world?", you ask. Well no one kicked none anywhere. We just decided to move, while letting the steam go. Steam that, incidentally, she has been consistently feeding by, for instance, interfering in other people´s threads, making nonsensical comments anywhere, with an absolute lack of respect to everyone else´s opinions and moods. And no one is excluding no one here. She can and will eventually come here, under the same login and password she uses in the general topic. On the other hand, this place has grown bigger than the place itself. No need to hide. Think of it more like. . . "exploring". And, if there is something this exploration has proved, for sure, is that there is a very good number of regulars who is absolutely fed with the mood set by this person. I´ll say something that I´ve already said before, you shouldn´t confuse tolerance with the obligation to endure the untolerable. So. We find ourselves great in here. If you want, and don´t assume yourself as a quitter, come and enjoy, you are more than welcome.

hey guys, i saw Ts first post here and the subsequent posts, but i?ve been trying to find the right words. Pedro, i particularly like your sentences ?Steam that, incidentally, she has been consistently feeding by, for instance, interfering in other peoplés threads, making nonsensical comments anywhere, with an absolute lack of respect to everyone elsés opinions and moods.? and ?you shouldńt confuse tolerance with the obligation to endure the [intolerable].? to say what has already been said many times before, we all know that in the beginning bettina had a few justified grievances: there were a few nut bars who were way out of line and there were a few less extreme cases. i saw quite a few say to her, that while they agreed that she had been wronged, at some point the best thing to do is to put it behind her and move on. her response to such advice was always negative and sometimes really nasty. i could put up with her inane and incomprehensible posts if only she wouldn?t keep dragging up the same old shit again and again, with the same old attacks on anyone who would deviate from her stance by the littlest bit. now some of us good people have gotten so fed up, so angry that we have ranted and even lapsed into name call, but, and this is an important but, they HAVE recognized that they went overboard and admitted it, unlike her. i?m all for unbounded love for my fellow human, but sometimes tough love is in order. there are SO MANY people who have been crossed by bettina or have stopped posting on the forum because of her that i?ve been toying with the idea of staging an intervention; you know, like they do for alcoholics. what if we posted a thread were EVERYONE who has been hurt by her told her how she made them feel. but then i realize that bettina is NEVER wrong. i have this awful feeling that even if EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THE FULL MOON CLUB joined our intervention she would just write us all off as wearers of ?dark glasses? or even worse. uggg! well, we didn?t do that. what we did do, in a way, is to walk away from a really loud and angry corner of the neighborhood to find a quiet and peaceful lawn where we could just hang out and talk.

When I'm tired of sitting in a smokey room, I go sit where there are no smokers.

Good points Phaedrus. Only thing I'd add is, we are here, on this part of "oasis" to forget a bit about her and amuse ourselves. Let's do it. Enjoy the company, T' that's the best I can say.

Hello All, Would it sound lame for me to say that I agree with EVERYONE!! That is, that I do agree that we should not exclude anyone here (after all, who are we to do that?), but more importantly, I agree that we have NOT excluded anyone . . . we have just taken a wee vacation from the turmoil that seemed to be present in every single thread. So, I agree with the majority who just want to come here and chat a bit and discuss the various things we discuss . . . and that can absolutely include anyone, even the person who seems very bitter about things. I did not know the history here (of the name calling, etc.) because I wasn't around here for quite a while. However, when I did come on here, I tried to ignore it (because I could see that it was an ongoing battle that I didn't know about). When I kept trying to read what I thought were decent topics, I kept reading this unintelligible inuendos directed toward some people. So, I mistakenly (and now regretably) asked her about a brief history (I did so via PM, so as not to clog up the threads with yet another mention of it). I was still confused, but decided it was better to be confused, but remain out of it. Which I have done to every single extent - I don't do name calling because that's pointless in my opinion. Regardless of how "neutral" I tried to be in that whole scenario, as it turned out, I was attacked because I voiced my opinion on another topic about something else entirely! So, it was at that point that I realized something (that I was already noticing on my own) . . . this particular person seems to want to alienate everyone/anyone who does not agree with her statements 100% completely. When a person states otherwise, he/she then falls under attack from her (I have the PMs and some threads to prove it). So, my way of handling the situation is that I still post on the general thread and here, based on what is interesting to me. I do not acknowledge any comments/posts made by her . . . I initially was bantering back and forth and even joking here and there about it, but decided that wasn't necessary. I just read and post, post and read and hopefully, don't offend anyone in the meantime. I certainly don't exclude them . . . to not answer a post personally is not excluding the person, it is my preogative. I almost always walk away from a conflict . . . and it has never been because of being a coward . . . if anything, it's more like my best defense. If I walk away, who is the opposing side fighting with, but themselves? (I actually find that walking away leaves me to calm down, re-think the situation and handle it better). And one little Irish saying . . . Never argue with a fool . . . people can't tell the difference! Kind regards to all, here, there and everywhere, Pat Parker

OK, you guy have your little hidey-hole, if it makes you feel better. But I think it's a little juvenile, and I don't want to be the bug in the pudding here, so to speak, so I've said all I'm going to say on the subject, just to be 'on the record' about it. I love you guys, all of you, but this is just plain wrong. Enjoy your space, and I hope we can all get beyond it sooner or later. Peace to all concerned in the giant family of Gabrielites. I'm done talking about it.

Is this some kind of microcosm in here? Anyway, it looks nice and safe. :-]

You would not believe me if I was telling you, mon ami.

Sorry. I should not tell you that,T', indeed, when I came back a year ago you were very kind to me and I do like you. Really. But you blame us of being wrong, maybe you didn't just realise how much we had to cope with bettina. Can't you be wrong too, my friend? And no, I'm no quitter, and I don't wanna start a new fire, but when she cames on the other place with her "best wishes, the people and jammings etc. simply great!!" what is it about? Plain self satisfaction from her. She thinks this is her place -no, PG's place and she's the guardian of it. THAT excludes us. And I can't subscribe to that. Okay I'm done too with this. I don't feel like a coward anyway.

T. You´re very nice, and you´ve always been. . . .But no one is hiding from no one and, allow me to insist, no one is excluding someone. We just decided to go around the block, in the same neighborhood, to avoid unpleasant situations. If you barely knew me, you´d know I could keep the fight forever and ever (at times it is even fun), but I personally think that it is way more harmful than looking for another place in the neighborhood, and letting the waters calm down. I had enough of being called names, of inuendos and even assumptions . . . and many others did. Now, we can chat about it here, with a tequila or a double espresso, without having to bash or ban or call names. We can discuss it in a reasonable and civil way. We can agree or not, but we don´t have to deal with pages and pages filled with. . . whatever to demonstrate who´s "right" and who´s supposedly wrong. It is open and wide, as it should´ve always been. You don´t have to force any smiley. What´s done is done. No need to search in page 254. We can move over. . .or not I humbly chose option 1

I don't think we are hiding at all. It isn't like you have to be invited to this spot or that it is hidden in some way. It is open, to anyone who wants to come. So we moved from one chair in the living room to another to be able to talk without interference from the noise from the kids at that end of the living room. We are still here just trying to be able to hear each other with out all the noise. I tried to maintain my compsure with said person until my PM box began to be flooded and, even worse, I started getting messages on other websites that have nothing to do with Peter Gabriel, about how blind I am, how I needed to take off the "dark glasses" etc., etc., etc. I WILL confess, like lots of others, that I let her make me upset and then posted while I was upset instead of thinking it over first. That I regret a lot. It's already done and I can't remove it. I can just go on, ignore and pass over. Deb