Progressive jen22 August 2012 at 8:09amPosts: 5472 (0 today)Status: offline
I just watched and you're right the audio is not synching with the video - terrible.
Mozo is Rael22 August 2012 at 2:33pmPosts: 252 (0 today)Status: offline
despite my recent criticisms of PG career decisions and box sets, please allow me to defend him here.
first, any notion that mr. gabriel lip synched his performances is absurd. i have seen him perform live since the early eighties. moreover, i own many soundboard recordings with no post-production work. i will testify under oath that his voice is that good.
second, there was an issue with youtube for high definition (HD or >720p) video. depending on the format uploaded, youtube's processing of can add a slight lag in the audio. while i have experienced this first hand, i doubt this was the cause of the 1:02 issue. So, i will add the third and most plausible explanation.
i am not sure if it's an industry standard, but mr. gabriel films live performances over several nights for commercial releases starting with PoV (aka, live in athens). specifically, PoV was filmed based on two performances in athens. in post-production, the best video and audio are mixed together. for this example, this may be the video from the first night synched with the audio from the second.
this criticism has been leveled primarily at SWL and all other of PG's concert films. the most blatant is "still growing up live" were you can see two entirely different stages (one round, the other festival) during the same song.
unlike your bono, mr. gabriel's voice has improved with age. anybody who attended a new blood show can attest to that including tony levin. i am prepared to discuss any post-production (e.g., over dubbing) work that mr. gabriel has done starting on live recordings starting with his "disclaimer" on plays live, and including the overdubbing used on a famous "lamb" recording (i.e., shrine) on the genesis archive box set. bring it on.
unfortunately, i think this has a lot to do with his perfectionistic tendencies. however, to try to lump him into lip sync category of ashlee simpson is just nonsense. these comments are already gaining steam on the sledgehammer promo.
(say it ain't So ashlee)
xtrmx22 August 2012 at 8:53pmPosts: 17 (0 today)Status: offline
First, it's not an HD issue, other parts of the vid, not everything else though, are timed up well so that cannot be possible .
Second, who said he was lip syncing? Ofcourse he never lipsynced, this is about the audio that comes with this dvd. It's just not the original audio, it's not only 1.02 but in the entire vid you see so many movements of his lips that it is never ever an original, it sounds too much like the album version which I think is where the dubs are from.
Yes I own a lot of other artists/bands DVDs and yes they always use multiple nights I am not an idiot you know, but they sound as live recordings and you can get into them and really relive the night, instead of this well, it sounds like they muted the sound and just overdubbed the studio version sound over it. It doesn't even matter if the audio IS in fact original as you claim it to be (although after your second lame excuse about the audio lag in HD youtube vids I still doubt this one is correct either and you're just grasping straws here), it just doesn't sound anywhere near a live recording, be it from the original or 2nd night.
Yes I know Peter Gabriel's other DVDs were eddited a lot either (Bass being added where Tony Levin puts his hands in the air etc), but you could feel/see him sing the song.
Third, If he sings the tempo as " I wannabe" (in the vid) instead of "I wanna .(1second pause).. be" on one night, he isn't likely to sing it differently the other night, so the two performances thing won't cut it for me.
And lastly, his voice, just like the butchered voice of Bono these days, has declined a lot, just as old voices do. On the new blood tour (I've been there 7 times so don't bullshit me with the "anyone who attended blabla" he could perfectly mask it when the tempo(drums) wasn't there and the songs tend to be a bit slower while he could time his notes well. I loved every second of it but it isn't the same /a better voice live. (I agree on his albums he has increased in depth, but surely not live)
Listen to a bootleg of the most recent full band performances in South America and you can clearly hear that he has lost some of the energy in his voice, which is totally normal given the man is over 60 years old. It's delusional fantalk to say that his voice has improved with age, simply bollocks and I fail to see what this issue has to do with the 1987 dvd.
Oh and as a fan I would love to hear the progression of the songs and/or alternate/early versions (I listen to Phil Collins' demo version all the time) But of course it is only available on the most expensive version and they are again trying to force us fans to spend a shitload of money (the concert ticket prices for new blood were the most expensive of any concert here in the Netherlands in the last 5 years, heck going to U2 12 times in 2011 was half the price of 5 new Blood concerts) in times where a lot of people these days simply don't have that kind of money. It's turning more and more to a -rich only or you can sit in the very back / get only the songs you already have on cd- performer.
Mozo is Rael22 August 2012 at 9:25pmPosts: 252 (0 today)Status: offline
reread my post as it was not directed primarily at you. i never said you accused him of lip synching, but many have on amazon (SWL), which are beginning to appear on this video. i discounted my own "second lame excuse." however, it was an issue as recent as a month ago.
right or wrong, you agree that this type post-production work is an industry standard. i like "plays live", but i far prefer the "untouched" soundboard recording of that era. additionally, i much prefer the original 1975 shrine recording over the over dubbing done on the archives box set.
finally, bono's voice has held up about as well as roger daltry's. as a owner of many encore CD's, i agree PG's voice appeared less than stellar on the recent tour of mexico/SA. i really do not think he was into the tour and was just going through the motions. but please explain how he could perfectly mask his voice 5x during new blood. that's the BS and you know it.
Mozo is Rael22 August 2012 at 9:43pmPosts: 252 (0 today)Status: offline
for full disclosure, i am also a fan of U2 and phil collins. not sure why you brought his name up. if you are such a fan of PG's, please read the disclaimer on "plays live." to date, i believe he's the only artist to release such a statement.
Doing a side by side comparison of this new version with the original VHS, I can say I don't believe the vocals are overdubbed on the new version. It may sound wierd just because the overall sound is so different/clearer on the new one.
Though the possibility remains they were overdubbed during postproduction for the original release. I'd like to think is voice really is *that* good live, as somebody said there are untouched soundboard recordings that are a testament to that.
Mozo is Rael23 August 2012 at 3:23amPosts: 252 (0 today)Status: offline
Progressive jen23 August 2012 at 4:37amPosts: 5472 (0 today)Status: offline
I've seen PG in concert 3 times and I've never thought he was lip synching and I've always enjoyed his performance.
I thought perhaps this was a glitch on the part of the people who revamped the concert footage, who ever accused him of being Ashlee Simpson?
Mozo is Rael23 August 2012 at 5:29amPosts: 252 (0 today)Status: offline
is it live or is it memorex?
whenever a "live" performance sounds too good to be true, cynics either cite lip synching or massive overdubbing (rerecording entire sections of vocals in the studio after the fact and "dubbing" them to the video). this individual claimed the latter. either way, you are essentially saying that the artist cannot sing and must cover this up in the studio.
post-production work on concert films (e.g., remixing the audio and matching with the best video) remains common practice. a bit of contemporaneous "overdubbing" of vocals is used to cover human flaws such as when an artist looses his breath on a key word or short phrase.
these inconsistencies were unnoticed by most viewers during the VHS era. however, hi-def video on large screen HDTV's make these type of things easier to pick out. to answer your question, here are comments already on the "live at athens" (aka, PoV) promo ad on youtube:
"Ii used to? Lip Sync Sledgehammer in the local bars!!!!"
and the reply, "Me too! 1 min? 03 secs indicates Gabriel is doing the same thing in this video. "
there are many more such claims in the "reviews" of SWL dvd on amazon. i am not denying the poor transfer of SWL to dvd. the blu-ray is a great improvement.
here PG himself explains a similar practice on the "plays live," which was common back in the day of double live albums. he was the only one to admit to it.
"although this album was compiled from four concerts in the mid-west of the united states, some additional recording took place not a thousand miles away from the home of the artist. the generic term of this is 'cheating.' care has been taken to keep the essence of the gigs intact including 'human imperfection.' the management."
Jonny7523 August 2012 at 10:08amPosts: 55 (0 today)Status: offline
PG doesn't lip sync in concert and that's that. He also has an incredible voice live (mostly!).
However, his "fix and mix" tendencies can go too far on live albums/films. PG has stated many times he hates live albums and I think it shows. I love the Encores as they are a little rough, have mistakes and, for me, are more powerful for it.
SWL Blu Ray is not too bad, although my problems with it are the same as those I've read PG share: it was badly filmed and recorded at a tired point of the tour. (A few month before or after had far better shows, but that's what generally happens on world tours.)
However the extra of Red Rain does have quite a distinct point towards the last third when the 1993 PG voice shifts into the distinctive 2012 version. I have no doubts the vocal was re-recorded for the release and both vocals were comp'd in the studio. A shame as I think a rough vocal would have been fine for this type of special extra.
Jonny7523 August 2012 at 10:10amPosts: 55 (0 today)Status: offline
Oh, and PoV always had that sort of thing, again due to it being of multiple shows. It also took 3 years to be released, what do you think was happening... editing?
I always thought PoV was pretty poor with some great flashes.
For me it wasn't until Growing Up that he got it right.
Cimber24 August 2012 at 4:11pmPosts: 2571 (0 today)Status: offline
i saw PG live - 2 weeks before "Secret World Live" was recorded. His voice and vocal performance was excellent (plus incredible show).
also any other PG-concert i saw so far included excellent vocal performances by PG.
On some nights - since the old Genesis days - Peter and his voice sound tired, but there are loads of live-performances, where his voice topps everything in rock-biz.
Jonny7524 August 2012 at 4:53pmPosts: 55 (0 today)Status: offline
Cimber, I have no doubts it was an excellent show in the wider perspective, but those dates were in a definite lull in the tour in comparison to the 1st and up to half way through the 2nd leg. The final "festival leg" picked things up, most likely as the band had had a rest and mixed things up a bit.
PG and band going through the motions is better than most acts around!
I also have no problem in knowing he sang very well, but PG doesn't often like his live vocals and will re-record them in the studio. Red Rain on SWL is one.
Cimber24 August 2012 at 6:38pmPosts: 2571 (0 today)Status: offline
i agree PG looked tired on that evening (the recording of SWL) - and it is not Peter`s best live performance. His voice is also not the best on that night. "SWL" as a film (VHS, later DVD) and the audio-double live CD was a commercial success though and both items (CD and film) are many peoples favourites. I welcome if fans enjoy it and like it, but for me it was dissapointing, when it got released. i had other exspectations (art work, track list). Many of the live recordings sounded weak to my ears - for example "Steam", "Dirt" or "Sledgehammer".
You mention "Red Rain" from "SWL" - i don`t know how much of it was re-recorded, but the track earned PG a Grammy nomination in the category "Best Rock Vocal Performance", while "SWL" won a Grammy in the category "Best Long Form Video". (. . .glorious moments a fan always remembers).
Sammy The Slug24 August 2012 at 7:41pmPosts: 1040 (0 today)Status: offline
I had exactly the same feelings Cimber when SWL was released.
Mr Beef26 August 2012 at 7:09pmPosts: 761 (0 today)Status: offline
I just listened to a soundboard of the Philadelphia 1987 show and interesting as it is to hear, it sounds nothing like the overdubbed Athens recording from POV. . . in the cold light of day the vocals are a bit of mess . . . I can understand why PG would want to "cheat". I think his vocals have improved a lot in the last decade or so - the BBC radio 2 New Blood in London, October 2011 performance was amazing to see and hear - definitely a great performance without question - the few re-takes at the end were mainly due to technical problems (and some idiot's mobile playing the theme from the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. . . .)